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WELCOME, glad you could visit us, OUR TOPIC: "Telephone Book Advertising " THIS CHAT WILL PROBABLY BE COPIED TO www.funeralserviceprofessional.com FOR ANYONE TO ENJOY LATER. Just a few rules for everyone: 1. USE ONLY PLAIN BLACK TEXT 2 DO NOT USE COMPANY NAMES 3 DISCRIMINATION IS NOT ALLOWED. If you would like chat reminders please send to: LOWELLMA@AOL.COM

brudd has joined.
Dave_B: Massachusett near John and you?
licensedfd: Pa
Host_John: Howdy folks
Dave_B: not too far away just 6- 8 hours
licensedfd: Hello J
Host_John: almost happy haloween
Host_John: Hello M
Host_John: Hi Dave
Dave_B: hey john
Dave_B: velcolm you ghouls
Host_John: M you still have leaves on the trees down your way
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Host_John: arond here they are falling off
Host_John: Hi Ron
licensedfd: Yep they are yellow now snow flurries on Wed
Dave_B: the big blow last nite took mine
RonHast: Hi 2 U
licensedfd: Hey Ron
Host_John: we had excellent heavy rain and wind last night
brudd: was in northern Maine last week and saw a couple of inches of the white schtuff on the ground
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brudd: too early
Dave_B: ewwwwww not ready
licensedfd: Keep it up north I am happy for warm weather
brudd: agreed
brudd: they say it is going to be another snowy winter and colder than last year
brudd: =(
Host_John: telephone book advertising
Host_John: how effective is it?
RonHast: Not much any more.
Host_John: how (un)necessary is it?
licensedfd: Have you reduced your advertising?in phone book that is
RonHast: Some will use it to find a number for a Name they know, but will not use it to find a funeral provider.
RonHast: Quite a bit of info on this now.
RonHast: Manywill look for funeral comparisons on the internet, but not the telephone directory.
Dave_B: how do lawyers put full page ads in--- costs thousands
Host_John: we have cut each year over the past 3 years
Dave_B: oh ya they charge thoussands
brudd: agree with Ron - I wouldn't think a family would chose a funeral home from the phone book, but rather use it as a tool to locate a phone number for a name they have in the backs of their mind
RonHast: Some of the largest firms now only list their names and telephone numbers. No general advertising.
licensedfd: thousands a month
licensedfd: they get hugh settlements unlike Fd's
Dave_B: waht are you all doing?
licensedfd: I have cut down the size of ad in yellow pages
Host_John: we put a special number in our big telephone book ad and the regular number in all the other postings in the telephone book
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RonHast: Some Fd's who own places distant from one another have tried both. The answer seems clear with that test. Telephone book only to find a number for a name they know.
Host_John: rarely do we get anyone call the number in the big ad
Dave_B: white pages or yellow?
RonHast: Computers are now quite viable -- but one of the most productive is references at time of actual death -- i.e. hospital personnel, police, neighbor, etc.
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RonHast: Formerly served is the primary re-call.
licensedfd: Families will think you are expensive if you can afford a hugh ad
hrbeckham: good evening all
Host_John: hello howard
RonHast: Death care seems to be breaking into two segments. Absolute simplicity vs. ceremonial services.
Dave_B: i keep cutting down but they have books in other areas
hrbeckham: so many yellow pages now wanting you to advertise
licensedfd: we have 3 phone books here
Host_John: all are hungry for advertizing dollars
Host_John: telphone book is no place to advertize
Dave_B: same here -- they cover all our areas
Host_John: your posting should be easy to find for your family
hrbeckham: we have cut back running smaller ad
RonHast: Very important to list name carefully whenever listed. Example: Never use the words: The Jones Funeral Home. Automatic listings will list under the word The -- and people are looking for Jones and can't find it.
Host_John: advertizing in areas where potential customers would not expect to hear your name
Dave_B: then you get the third party's that you must watch out for--- such as internet yellow page
hrbeckham: list under funeral home and cremation
RonHast: Rarely do persons call a funeral home because of advertising in yellow pages -- any of them.
RonHast: May use as a reference, but not because of the advertising.
Host_John: if you look for your funeral home on the internet how does it come up
Dave_B: I agree - we are small oens they know who they want to ue
Host_John: as we move forward, the internet service providors will show who they want to show
hrbeckham: have noticed funeral homes from out of the area have started advertising in the cremation listing with a local phone number
RonHast: Also, firms beginning with low letters ( A , B, etc.) get the benefit of first listings anywhere.
Dave_B: hey hey i start with a B
RonHast: Cremation clients will call a distant firm because of price, knowing it doesn't matter where the firm is located.
RonHast: The Internet has proven that.
Host_John: I think families know where they want to go
Host_John: how easy to see if the funeral home's sign?
licensedfd: Does anyone advertise price?
RonHast: And "cremation" should be in the name style, as people "google" "cremation" which brings them to names featuring cremation.
Dave_B: i agree--- some price shoppers sound like a pain so i refer them elswher
hrbeckham: in s. Florida one firm does over a thousand cremation calls a year from a hundrend mile radius
RonHast: One of my places developed over 400 calls per year on the internet alone -- no yellow page ads. Only internet. All simplicity, all cremation.
Dave_B: S & H Green stamps or just enough tp pay gas money??
hrbeckham: really?
licensedfd: How much do they charge for cremation, Ron
RonHast: It works in conjunction with a traditional facility -- and staff, cars, holding, etc.
RonHast: $707 complete with no surprise charges.
licensedfd: Crematory fee included?
Dave_B: but they can own their own crematory
hrbeckham: we have a cremation society in addition to the funeral home, their calls are up
RonHast: Excuse me -- $797 with no surprises or other required charges other than certified copies of the cert.
RonHast: Yes it is. Costs $125.
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RonHast: The $125 is included in the $797.
licensedfd: geeze ours crematory charges us 240
hrbeckham: what is $125?
Host_John: that is 282K in total sales before any expenses not much of a margin
Dave_B: we are trapped in Massachusetts cannot own crematory
hrbeckham: crematory charge?
RonHast: Cost for actual cremation only
Host_John: sorry we should not use prices here
Dave_B: 340 here
RonHast: Sorry.
Host_John: to the consumer advocates they will charge us with price fixing
Dave_B: john these are prices of third parties -- not ours I feel ok with disclosure
hrbeckham: volume the only way to make money on low priced cremation
licensedfd: Plus they need a container to put em in before cremation
Host_John: we have so much more to talk about
Host_John: let us please stay away from prices
RonHast: It works well and profitably if associated with an established funeral home but operated at arms length.
Host_John: thanks
Dave_B: all of you have web sites?
RonHast: Cremation container and simplicity urn are also included. Again, no extra or surprise charges.
hrbeckham: proposed to change direct disposer rules here to where a Lfd has to be in charge and responsible for the operation
licensedfd: that is outrageous
RonHast: That's true in California.
RonHast: But a licensed funeral director does not have to be an embalmer. In fact, many firms now do not employ embalmers, only on an at need basis (trade embalmer)
RonHast: Very efficient....
licensedfd: We only have 1 license in Pa. .... Fd
RonHast: Largest firm in Indiana with many funeral homes does not employ embalmers.
RonHast: Many firms now, the majority of all calls are not embalmed. Held in refrigeration.
Host_John: majority here are embalmed
Host_John: we dont embalm as much as we once did
RonHast: Majority are embalmed in many places where people have their roots there, it seems.
Host_John: we get permission
licensedfd: got to go...ttyl
Host_John: night M
licensedfd: Nite all
Host_John: as for the telephone book ad
hrbeckham: Ron, I know from our past conversations that you an opinion about embalming
Host_John: consider spending less there and put that money into real advertizing
RonHast: What is my opinion about embalming?
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Dave_B: bat phne goota run
hrbeckham: it is your opinion
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hrbeckham: not mine
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hrbeckham: though I did have two nonembalmed bodies last week that where viewed
RonHast: My opinion is : "embalming is our best known method of presenting a deceased person in state well through the final services.
RonHast: I have seen many excellent (public) presentations without embalming, and support that wholeheartedly.
hrbeckham: That is how I understood it Ron
Host_John: when a family asks you about embalming what do you say?
RonHast: And we always provided that without restriction unless the condition of the body warranted.....
RonHast: We say as I said above....embalming is our best known method of preenting a decedent in state well through the memorial process."
hrbeckham: it is not required by law, the funeral home however does however require embalming for any public visitation
Host_John: we say embalming gives us the opportunity to make the person look their best, if the casket is to be open for people to see, embalming is a practical decision if the person is not going to be seen, embalming is not as practical.
RonHast: But we do not do a tap dance around that by saying anything about "protecting the public health" because it doesn't.
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Host_John: Hi Sam
S_Moore: hello all
RonHast: That is true. If someone is a true "embalming artist", he or she has the edge. But many, now, inject the fluid and think that process does the job. There's more to it than that.
hrbeckham: in many cases, I think embalming helps to make a better presentation
S_Moore: lets back up...embalming is for disinfection and temp preservation
RonHast: Details in facial care, cosmetics, fine (and light) cosmetics all play in to it.
S_Moore: The tru test is in the embalmer
RonHast: But some just paint the face with "orange juice" and call it a day.
Host_John: most are surprised how well the remains look
RonHast: So true, S. M.
S_Moore: Ron we need to weed them out as employers..
RonHast: Again, back to the care and artistry of the embalmer.
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hrbeckham: there is a lot of "fine tuning" post embalming feature builder grooming make up etc
RonHast: And, someone who knows how to present a body unembalmed, (even though more difficult), the results can be outstanding.
hrbeckham: and ofcourse the hair
S_Moore: nothing worse than seeing nose hair ande birds nests in the ears
Host_John: So can the smell Ron
RonHast: There's a lot to it. Even such items of leaving a sheet over the face and resting on the nose. It can cause it to turn sideways. etc. etc. etc.
hrbeckham: the complexion and condition of the skin determine a lot
Host_John: when things go wrong with an unembalmed remains they really go wrong
RonHast: Refrigeration is a primary issue in presenting a body unembalmed.
S_Moore: we only view unembalmed bodies for the immed family and only for a brief time
hrbeckham: when in doubt, over protect
RonHast: That's your perrogative.
hrbeckham: in edemia cases especially
Host_John: with all the directs with no view, it is a problem
RonHast: Can't understand your refusal to allow others to see besides the family? What is your reasoning?
S_Moore: public health
RonHast: S. Moore? Did You Honestly And Truthfully Say 'public Health"??????????
RonHast: That is not a correct statement.
S_Moore: we do not require embalming...only if you plan to have open casket visitation and service
RonHast: And if you refused to let someone see a body on that statement, you could be liable for misinformation and could lose a lawsuit if someone wanted to take it that far.
S_Moore: do you actually open a casket for the public ? what was the cause of death what are you exposing the guests to?
RonHast: You may do that if you wish, but you cannot refuse someone viewing a body because of "protecting public health" other than very rare circumstances. Extremely rare in fact.
diggerffs: And if an unembalmed body starts to purge during the four hours of public visitation unde those hot lights. lawsuit city for emotion distress.
Host_John: BRB
S_Moore: we do not keep the family from viewing. we just dont have a 6hr visitation for the world to walk by an unembalmed body
RonHast: S. Moore -- what in the world does every person in our business do going out and picking up and handling, and transporting and lifting a body do because of public health???? We all go anywhere any time. The only persons subject to problems with health is the embalmer who cuts into the body.
S_Moore: We Use Universal Percautions
RonHast: You can restrict if you want....but you can't do it because of telling anyone that embalming protects the public health therefore the public can't view. It is indefendable.
hrbeckham: had the hospital call after we did the removal and embalmed a deceased to tell us they had a dangerours highly contagious illness
RonHast: You don't use universal precautions on every first call, in homes, under bridges, from the coroner, and other issues of handling. You may be talking about with the process of embalming.
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RonHast: And the public has nothing to do with that.
S_Moore: i will do some research for you this week Ron and email you
RonHast: Bottom line....there is no defense if you tell someone they are restricted from viewing because of (no embalming) public health protection.
hrbeckham: I always use universal precautions, but it would have been nice to know from the get go
RonHast: The research has been done on this so much it is conclusive. The Cdc had adamantly confirmed this, as well as coroners, pathologists and public health agencies.
S_Moore: Why do we embal,?
Host_John: Ron I do think you can have a company policy of no public viweing with out embalming
RonHast: But it isn't known from the get=go, and how many folks have gotten sick from handling bodies into the firm without any knowledge of circumstances or cause of death?
hrbeckham: we do
Host_John: much like many airlines will not take unembalmed remains
diggerffs: Public viewing anyway
barry: john...had a graveside in connecticut on friday, when i went through massachusets, they waived the toll fee on the turnpike...or was it free for everyone this weekend?
RonHast: Tell me what airlines John. They have been transferring bodies for years undembalmed without embalming, properly prepared and refrigerated, with icepaks. It's done every day now.
diggerffs: Talk about liability. The first person that kisses the dead unembalmed body at public visitation and claims to become sick from that. Who do they sue, the family. I think not. It will be the funeral home
hrbeckham: that is why I believe we should be able to have as much info about the cause of death or things like Mrsa etc
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Host_John: Ron Ill ask next time we ship, but American Delta United have told us in the past they don't ship unembalmed, maybe something has changed
RonHast: Anyone can claim anything they want...and can sue anyone they want. But there must be a basis to win....and being in the presence of an unembalmed dead body is not a public health hazzard.
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Host_John: wow barry I did not know that
Host_John: Mass usually does not charge if flag is on casket
barry: i guess hearses don't pay
RonHast: John: I created the Airtray in 1960. It is the same design (essentially) and we did it because of American Airlines. And I can tell you first hand, unembalmed bodies are shipped every day in essentially all airlines.
fluidpusher: I took a procession of about 5 cars on the turnpike once and I paid for all the cars behind me.
barry: smart move
Host_John: if you tell them the remains are unembalmed they don't want them
fluidpusher: the airlines don't know if the body is embalmed or not
RonHast: Call Malinow & Silverman Mortuary in Los Angeles. Ask them how many they ship every week unembalmed throughout the U.s. Ask for Sandy Fine.
Host_John: I know I have seen it in writting for the airlines in the past, have not checked lately
S_Moore: M and S is a jewish mortuary and the body must be in a saler
hrbeckham: we fly unembalmed bodies from time to time but use dry ice
fluidpusher: I once received a body from Chile that they said was embalmed, couldn't tell by looking at it
S_Moore: sealer. religious reasons for not embalming
barry: i get two different outfits from memphis, tn & portland, oregon that ask me to ship anatomical donations with gel paks
RonHast: This subject has been hashed and re-hashed for a long time. Essentially, the funeral director is more liable for not telling a supported truth than someone kissing a decedent and saying they got sick because they weren't embalmed.
fluidpusher: I'll bet almost every family has people kissing the deceased at the home or nursinghome/hospital before we even get there for the removal
RonHast: And if you want a list of credentials and referene to the Cdc to confirm, I'll gladly provide it.
hrbeckham: point understood
RonHast: Only a technician cutting into a dead body that may be carrying a communicable disease is vulnerable to catching a disease.
fluidpusher: I kissed my mom while she was laying on the kitchen floor after she died, before she was taken away
barry: some of the stuff from received florida, i guess you could that embalming
hrbeckham: huh barry?
fluidpusher: you wanna say that again, barry?
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diggerffs: I'm talking about days later, at public visitation. Not shortly after death. The length of time that a person is dead makes a difference.
RonHast: And I'm sure that kiss was memorable to you -- at least I hope so. Sad occasion, but there should be no restriction to anyone for their emotional needs and/or to decline them because of no embalming.
barry: we're talking about shipping embalmed/unembalmed right?
hrbeckham: I usually follow up with everycase I ship out to be sure the receiving fh is satisfied
RonHast: True digger. We're not talking about leaving a body to decompose. You can care for a body properly for days, and still present it. For heaven sakes, they hold the meat we eat in refrigeration until mould grows, then we eat the steaks. C'mon people. We need to know the facts here.
Host_John: we have had family sign off that the funeral home recommends noone see the remains the are demanding to see
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fluidpusher: good idea, john
diggerffs: My steaks are cooked. Medium well.
RonHast: Whatever. The main issue is not to claim to families untruths. That can be danerous. Nite all.....thanks for the chat. R.
Host_John: then we have pre needs demanding embalming being afraid they will wake up in the retort or grave
fluidpusher: embalming does remain a good way to prevent live burial
hrbeckham: we like to hold a ship out for atleast a day after we prep to be sure every thing is ok...some fh's like to try to rush us to remove embalm and ship out in the same day
hrbeckham: brb
Host_John: Night Ron
Host_John: thanks for your thoughts
fluidpusher: Good night, Mr. Hast...
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Host_John: Back on topic in two minutes
barry: i've had receiving funeral homes change the flight times on me after i booked the flight in order to get it there earlier
fluidpusher: never had that happen.
barry: what is the topic?
Host_John: Telephone book advertizing
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Host_John: back on topic now, TELEPHONE BOOK ADVERTISING
Host_John: we are down sizing
fluidpusher: I do only the bare minimum listing, no ad
fluidpusher: too many phone books in our area
barry: we have about 4 different books in my area. you have to pay just to have your number listed. extortion!!
fluidpusher: almost all the funeral homes do only bare minimum
barry: i do the bare minimum too
fluidpusher: I refuse to believe that people select a fh based on a yellow pages ad
Host_John: good time for AGE, GENDER, LOCATION CHECK please
fluidpusher: male ohio 45
Host_John: 60,M, Lovlely Lowell Massachusetts USA
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hrbeckham: time for bed for me......good night all ....god bless you all. Please do not forget to vote! God bless and protect America
Host_John: Night Howard
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barry: i went to an advertising/marketing seminar 6 years ago and have studied the subject. phone books are a waste of money. do bare minimum only
fluidpusher: especially with google and the internet nowadays
fluidpusher: I'd rather come up on an internet search than spend $$ on a phone book
barry: best bang for your buck is direct mail
Host_John: the older generation is still using telephone books
fluidpusher: Oh, we are in the phone book, just not any big ads or anything
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barry: the first year we opened our second location back in 1989, the only phonebook in the area published are phone incorrectly, my dad had to buy the incorrect number for $25,000
fluidpusher: Don't you mean the phone company had to pay $25,000? If not, I would have sued them for it.
barry: we tried to do things out of court
barry: the phone number was a local motorcycle dealer's off-line and they extorted us
fluidpusher: sure, funeral home = deep pockets
Host_John: does anyone see a value in a large ad in the telephone book
fluidpusher: only the telephone company, John
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barry: i do the redbook & nomis there is value in that
Host_John: Jeeze we almost always use National Mortuary Shipping
Host_John: don't consult that blue, red, yellow or green books anymore
barry: what is Mnms now $895?
barry: Nms
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Host_John: I dont remember
Host_John: they have always rendered us good servce
barry: even in florida?
Host_John: yes even in florida
Host_John: where are you Barry?
barry: detroit
Host_John: calling the local funeralhome is usually much more expensive
barry: j. gilbert purse funeral home look up our ads in the trade directories....true local funeral homes usually charge an arm & leg
Host_John: do you do a lot of shipping Barry?
barry: maybe 30 to 50 per year...is that a lot???
Host_John: sounds like once a week
Host_John: that is good
Host_John: we get very few
barry: the florida guys brag big numbers
Host_John: we charge retail now
barry: i spend about $5000 on both directories each year, probably break even
barry: $5000 total
Host_John: wow
Host_John: why do you spend so much?
Host_John: grab the inman and nms contracts
Host_John: no adds and more work
barry: i advertise in just about every major city in michgan
Host_John: if it is working for you Barry that is great
barry: i thing the detroit contract is taken for the Inman & Nms...they let yo keep all the money...inman & Nms that is?
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Trice_9: Hello Room
barry: i meet a lot of different undertakers & make alot of friends and connections doing the shipping thing.
Host_John: Hello Trice
Trice_9: This is a topic I just don't get so many telemarketers call me
Trice_9: Hello John
Host_John: hello Trice
Host_John: what telemarketeers call you?
barry: they call us nonstop
Host_John: what are they selling
Trice_9: So many different one 3 different phone books in my area
Host_John: I get one a day and gently get them off the line
Trice_9: I just don't believe with the need of website
Trice_9: of a
barry: they call from the philipines & india at night and from usa during the day telemarketers
Trice_9: in a phone book
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Host_John: we get the same as you, we just ease them off the line
Trice_9: Be considerate to them as well
Trice_9: they are trying to sell ads
Host_John: yes they are just at work just like you
Host_John: and you are trying to sell funerals
barry: i ease'em off too, but the robot computer calls i just hang up
Host_John: I hang up on robot too
Trice_9: I'm trying to rebound a old funeral home whose business went to the dumps
Host_John: at the end of the day it seems the telephone book is not what it once was for our advertising needs
barry: good luck, you can do it
Host_John: Trice where are you?
Trice_9: Barnesville Ga
Trice_9: A small town
Host_John: what do you do to get out there?
Trice_9: We've spoken over the phone once upon a time
Host_John: You and I?
Trice_9: yes about some material in the chat room
Host_John: not remebering sorry I do get a lot of calls
Trice_9: about sexual orientation and prejudice
Host_John: must have been years ago
Trice_9: yes 2
barry: trice_9...spend less than you make and you will be all right
Host_John: again Trice what are you doing to promote your funeralhome
Trice_9: I'm trying to advertise not much of a budget since no calls are coming
Trice_9: Athletic teams sponsorship
Host_John: do you get out in pubic?
Host_John: good idea sponser the kids
Trice_9: and attend political forums and church programs
Host_John: do you work Bingo?
Host_John: bingo is a great way to get out and meet people
Trice_9: The thing is that I'm young in a society who is not receptive
barry: do direct mail postcards...i make'em myself with cardstock can print 4 to a sheet..26 cents postage...mailing lists you may have to spend $300
Trice_9: im sorry town
Trice_9: join the chamber
Host_John: it is free to volunteer at bingo
Host_John: gets you out amongst your own public
barry: trice...i took over from my dad when i was 30 yrs old...it hurt me at times my age, but my brother & i out hustled the older guys
Trice_9: ok i will search into that i don't think we have bingo here
Trice_9: how did u do that barry
barry: go play cards at the local speak easy
Host_John: Time to call it a night folks
Trice_9: i offer a more professional service
Host_John: good to see you all have a great week and see you all next time
Trice_9: ok good night thanks for the advice
Host_John: Welcome Night